Recap of our Discussion on Aug 30, 2009
Genesis 25: Jacob and Esau;
Overview of Gen 1-25
Finishing up from our discussion of Genesis 25: 19-34
7. Because God has chosen Jacob to be the bearer of the family tradition, does that justify Jacob’s tricky ways?
- Did God give them (Jacob and Esau) their personalities? They were pre-wired.
- Esau didn’t appreciate his birthright anyway, so he was a bad candidate to carry on the covenant.
[We ask again – was Esau really hungry, or was he exaggerating? Later on, was Esau’s wife saying, “I married you for better or for worse, but not for lunch.”?]
Nobody’s perfect – everybody is flawed and God can use us, even flawed.
How could Rebecca dismiss what God told her about the older serving the younger?
Overview of Genesis 1 - 25
1. Themes we see in the first part of Genesis
- The same story is told over again and again (through Genesis, and throughout the entire Bible). The story is forgiveness, redemption, and love. Everything leads up to Jesus’ death on the cross, and then the plot line changes.
- There are many different stories with the same underlying theme, because God knows that each of us will respond to certain stories and not others.
- The whole story of Genesis is about how we gave up on our relationship with God, for immediate gratification, starting with Adam-Eve-serpent-fruit, right on through Esau selling his birthright for some red stew.
2. Perceptions which have changed with this study
- (See #1 above)
- I have a problem with Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. Also a problem with Hagar being sent into the desert – it seems unjust. But I don’t blame God; the people made wrong choices.
3. Some favorite characters from Genesis:
- all the barren women
- Jacob talking Esau out of his birthright. It’s cloak-and-dagger stuff!
Some books mentioned:
The Language of God by a scientist. (I am guessing that this book is
The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief by Francis S. Collins (Paperback - Jul 17, 2007)
-basic thesis of the book is that we need to learn to accept God as a holy mystery.
Your God is Too Small (I am guessing that this is Your God Is Too Small: A Guide for Believers and Skeptics Alike by J.B. Phillips (Paperback - May 25, 2004)
We tend to put human limitations on God. We try to put God in a box, but God isn’t in a box. God IS the box.
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
Sunday, August 30, 2009
Sunday, August 23, 2009
Gen 25: Birth of Jacob and Esau
Recap of our Discussion on Aug 23, 2009
Genesis 25
The death of Abraham/
The birth of Jacob and Esau
1. Isaac is the chosen vessel for transmitting Abraham’s covenant. Does this mean that God’s promises exclude everyone but him?
- No, on a first look.
- This question is unanswerable.
- What are the promises of God?
- to make Abraham the father of many nations
- to bless Abraham and make his name great
- through Abraham to bless all nations
- Eventually through Christ, God’s promises are shared with all people.
-He promised Abraham he would be the father of nations.
- God’s promises are more universal (for example, pray and you’ll be heard). But the promise of that land is just for Isaac.
- This question is unanswerable. Let’s move on.
2b. What is Abraham’s role in the plan of God that runs through Genesis?
- His role is to be the father of many nations; to live in the land.
-They are creating the Jewish nation. That’s why he kept his family separate from other nations.
- Part of his role was to worship God.
-Did he also have a duty to teach his descendants about God?
3. In Gen 25:19-22 what difficulties and tests of faith do Isaac and Rebekah encounter in the birth of their sons?
- another barren woman
- babies jostling within her
- as parents, Isaac and Rebekah and pretty upset.
- One conclusion: obstacles do NOT necessarily mean that God is not fulfilling his promise. Don’t take an obstacle to be a “no” from God.
- Rebekah is a good listener – she hear’s God’s answer. It is easier to pray than it is to listen for God’s answer.
- Sasquatch (Esau) came out first. Remember that Rebekah was like a line-backer, as we learned in Gen Chapter 24.
5. What does Esau’s attitude toward his birthright reveal about his character (25:29-34)?
- Question – what does Esau mean by his statement “I’m about to die”?
One answer- it might be sarcastic, or he is over-dramatizing.
The birthright was an earthly, inconsequential thing to Esau. He didn’t have any faith- can’t look into the future. He is into instant gratification.
6. Do you know anyone, like Jacob, who appears, almost from the start, to struggle with a dark side and at the same time shows promise of great accomplishments?
- Well, nobody from our church.
- From the Bible – David is a prime example (David-Bathsheba-Uriah). Also, Abraham was not faultless.
- All of us make mistakes – some of the mistakes are found out.
- Political leaders can make terrible mistakes, but then still be able to accomplish many good things.
- It’s easy to condemn people for the wrong things they have done.
- We wouldn’t be human if we didn’t struggle with the dark side. Every day.
- These flawed people are still used by God. That gives us hope!
7. Because God has chosen Jacob to be the bearer of the family tradition, does that justify Jacob’s tricky ways?
- We’ll discuss this next time!
Genesis 25
The death of Abraham/
The birth of Jacob and Esau
1. Isaac is the chosen vessel for transmitting Abraham’s covenant. Does this mean that God’s promises exclude everyone but him?
- No, on a first look.
- This question is unanswerable.
- What are the promises of God?
- to make Abraham the father of many nations
- to bless Abraham and make his name great
- through Abraham to bless all nations
- Eventually through Christ, God’s promises are shared with all people.
-He promised Abraham he would be the father of nations.
- God’s promises are more universal (for example, pray and you’ll be heard). But the promise of that land is just for Isaac.
- This question is unanswerable. Let’s move on.
2b. What is Abraham’s role in the plan of God that runs through Genesis?
- His role is to be the father of many nations; to live in the land.
-They are creating the Jewish nation. That’s why he kept his family separate from other nations.
- Part of his role was to worship God.
-Did he also have a duty to teach his descendants about God?
3. In Gen 25:19-22 what difficulties and tests of faith do Isaac and Rebekah encounter in the birth of their sons?
- another barren woman
- babies jostling within her
- as parents, Isaac and Rebekah and pretty upset.
- One conclusion: obstacles do NOT necessarily mean that God is not fulfilling his promise. Don’t take an obstacle to be a “no” from God.
- Rebekah is a good listener – she hear’s God’s answer. It is easier to pray than it is to listen for God’s answer.
- Sasquatch (Esau) came out first. Remember that Rebekah was like a line-backer, as we learned in Gen Chapter 24.
5. What does Esau’s attitude toward his birthright reveal about his character (25:29-34)?
- Question – what does Esau mean by his statement “I’m about to die”?
One answer- it might be sarcastic, or he is over-dramatizing.
The birthright was an earthly, inconsequential thing to Esau. He didn’t have any faith- can’t look into the future. He is into instant gratification.
6. Do you know anyone, like Jacob, who appears, almost from the start, to struggle with a dark side and at the same time shows promise of great accomplishments?
- Well, nobody from our church.
- From the Bible – David is a prime example (David-Bathsheba-Uriah). Also, Abraham was not faultless.
- All of us make mistakes – some of the mistakes are found out.
- Political leaders can make terrible mistakes, but then still be able to accomplish many good things.
- It’s easy to condemn people for the wrong things they have done.
- We wouldn’t be human if we didn’t struggle with the dark side. Every day.
- These flawed people are still used by God. That gives us hope!
7. Because God has chosen Jacob to be the bearer of the family tradition, does that justify Jacob’s tricky ways?
- We’ll discuss this next time!
Sunday, August 16, 2009
Genesis 24: Rebekah and the Camels
Recap of our Discussion on Aug 16, 2009
Genesis 24
Isaac and Rebecca
1. What do you think are Abraham’s main concerns when he gives instruction to his servant? (24:1-9)
- That Isaac get a wife.
- That Isaac get a wife from a particular area
- that Isaac NOT go back there.
Several asides:
1a. It was a long trip, according to the map.
1b. Define “relatives” – isn’t Isaac marrying his cousin?
- Later under Mosaic law, it was forbidden to marry your cousin, sister, etc. But it wasn’t forbidden at the time of this story. The legend is very old, and the writers put into it things that were disapproved of later.
1c. Why not send Isaac WITH the servant?
- maybe Isaac’s personality was not a selling point.
- maybe it was too dangerous
1d. “Under my thigh” (v 2 and 9) – I don’t start conversations like that!
2. Why did Abraham and the other patriarchs prefer not to have their sons marry the local Canaanite women?
- They are idol worshippers. The patriarchs don’t want their sons marrying them.
- (But probably the daughters could marry idol –worshippers)
3. When the servant arrives at his destination, he offers the first prayer for guidance recorded in the Bible. What does he specifically ask of God (24:10-14)?
- he asks for success
- he asks for a particular response from the girl
- he asks for a kindness to himself (and a kindness to the animals?)
- he is asking for a miracle, because the girl wouldn’t know that this particular action is the sign
- Even before you have asked, God knows the desire of your heart.
- God might have put that idea(to ask for that sign) in the servant’s head
3a. What do people look for when they ask God for a sign?
- check about roadblocks. If there is an obstacle, then it probably means I am not supposed to continue on that path.
- I want to be sure – is it idolatrous to ask for certainty?
4. Describe Rebekah in your own words.
- she is good-looking.
- pure and innocent.
- she has her eye on the Main Chance; she is looking out for herself.
- I disagree. She’s hospitable.
- typical for her time, she dutifully served others
- she is strong (could lift water for 10 camels = 25 gallons per camel)
- hospitable
- humane
- anxious to leave home.
- an aside: nobody in her family asked about the character/personality of Isaac.
5. Why is the servant so astonished when the first girl to arrive at the well met all his requirements so exactly? To what does he attribute this fortuitous happening?
- he attributes this to God answering his prayer.
6. What clues do you get from this passage about Isaac’s personality and character?
- He was obedient to his father, who wouldn’t let him go get his own bride.
- He was sorely damaged by his past experience (near sacrifice on Mt Moriah)
- He was a genial dolt. He was a Momma’s boy.
- So what if he was a dolt - he loved Rebekah – this is a redeeming aspect to his personality.
An aside: one Bible’s footnotes suggest that the story is also an allegory, with the characters representing ideas/ people from the New Testament. For instance, the servant is a “type” of the Holy Spirit; Rebekah represents the Church; Isaac – the bridegroom of the church.
We disagreed on whether this was an appropriate interpretation.
7. Are the camels important? Why or why not?
- They are the center of the miracle, which revealed the nature of Rebekah as a suitable wife for Isaac.
- They are the transportation to make a long trip – indispensable.
- A sign of wealth
- Camels can travel a long distance without water.
- Maybe they really used donkeys instead, since archaeologists say camels are anachronistic in this story.
- The archaeologists can’t say that there weren’t camels; they can only say there is no evidence that there were camels at that time in history.
- Don’t get stuck on the details and end up missing the main point of the story, which is...
8. If you had to pick a theological theme for this passage, what would you say the theme is?
- ask for specifics when praying
- God’s involvement with us is amazing.
- The progeny is the important thing here- Abraham can’t have descendants if his son doesn’t have a wife.
Genesis 24
Isaac and Rebecca
1. What do you think are Abraham’s main concerns when he gives instruction to his servant? (24:1-9)
- That Isaac get a wife.
- That Isaac get a wife from a particular area
- that Isaac NOT go back there.
Several asides:
1a. It was a long trip, according to the map.
1b. Define “relatives” – isn’t Isaac marrying his cousin?
- Later under Mosaic law, it was forbidden to marry your cousin, sister, etc. But it wasn’t forbidden at the time of this story. The legend is very old, and the writers put into it things that were disapproved of later.
1c. Why not send Isaac WITH the servant?
- maybe Isaac’s personality was not a selling point.
- maybe it was too dangerous
1d. “Under my thigh” (v 2 and 9) – I don’t start conversations like that!
2. Why did Abraham and the other patriarchs prefer not to have their sons marry the local Canaanite women?
- They are idol worshippers. The patriarchs don’t want their sons marrying them.
- (But probably the daughters could marry idol –worshippers)
3. When the servant arrives at his destination, he offers the first prayer for guidance recorded in the Bible. What does he specifically ask of God (24:10-14)?
- he asks for success
- he asks for a particular response from the girl
- he asks for a kindness to himself (and a kindness to the animals?)
- he is asking for a miracle, because the girl wouldn’t know that this particular action is the sign
- Even before you have asked, God knows the desire of your heart.
- God might have put that idea(to ask for that sign) in the servant’s head
3a. What do people look for when they ask God for a sign?
- check about roadblocks. If there is an obstacle, then it probably means I am not supposed to continue on that path.
- I want to be sure – is it idolatrous to ask for certainty?
4. Describe Rebekah in your own words.
- she is good-looking.
- pure and innocent.
- she has her eye on the Main Chance; she is looking out for herself.
- I disagree. She’s hospitable.
- typical for her time, she dutifully served others
- she is strong (could lift water for 10 camels = 25 gallons per camel)
- hospitable
- humane
- anxious to leave home.
- an aside: nobody in her family asked about the character/personality of Isaac.
5. Why is the servant so astonished when the first girl to arrive at the well met all his requirements so exactly? To what does he attribute this fortuitous happening?
- he attributes this to God answering his prayer.
6. What clues do you get from this passage about Isaac’s personality and character?
- He was obedient to his father, who wouldn’t let him go get his own bride.
- He was sorely damaged by his past experience (near sacrifice on Mt Moriah)
- He was a genial dolt. He was a Momma’s boy.
- So what if he was a dolt - he loved Rebekah – this is a redeeming aspect to his personality.
An aside: one Bible’s footnotes suggest that the story is also an allegory, with the characters representing ideas/ people from the New Testament. For instance, the servant is a “type” of the Holy Spirit; Rebekah represents the Church; Isaac – the bridegroom of the church.
We disagreed on whether this was an appropriate interpretation.
7. Are the camels important? Why or why not?
- They are the center of the miracle, which revealed the nature of Rebekah as a suitable wife for Isaac.
- They are the transportation to make a long trip – indispensable.
- A sign of wealth
- Camels can travel a long distance without water.
- Maybe they really used donkeys instead, since archaeologists say camels are anachronistic in this story.
- The archaeologists can’t say that there weren’t camels; they can only say there is no evidence that there were camels at that time in history.
- Don’t get stuck on the details and end up missing the main point of the story, which is...
8. If you had to pick a theological theme for this passage, what would you say the theme is?
- ask for specifics when praying
- God’s involvement with us is amazing.
- The progeny is the important thing here- Abraham can’t have descendants if his son doesn’t have a wife.
Sunday, August 9, 2009
Genesis 23: the Burial of Sarah
Recap of our Discussion on Aug 9, 2009
Genesis 21: 22-34 and 23
Two business transactions
I neglected to take good notes, so this will be sketchy and inaccurate.
Genesis 21: 22-34
Abraham and Abimelech make a covenant about the well at Beersheba.
Abimelech recognized that God is with Abraham. Note that Abimelech and Phicol are not just random dudes but are powerful men with an army at their command. These powerful people find it to their advantage to make a treaty with Abraham.
Genesis 23
The Burial of Sarah
1. Who are the characters in this passage? Abraham, the Hittites, Ephron.
2. What major characters from recent chapters of Genesis are not mentioned in this passage? Isaac (we presume he did not return with Abraham, after the event on Mount Moriah). Hagar, Ishmael.
Abimelech.
God. Does the fact that God is not mentioned explicitly mean that God is not involved?
No- Abraham has been tight with God all along.
3, 4 & 6. The nature of the transaction
This is a classic case of Middle-Eastern bargaining. Each side must retain dignity throughout the transaction. The Hittites had to offer the best burial sites in order to not look bad. The mute understanding is that they really don’t mean it, and the other side is supposed to respond appropriately by refusing the “gift”. Abraham responds by asking for a different site.
American culture assumes that we will honestly state upfront what we expect from a transaction. Not so in the culture of Genesis 23.
5. Why did Abraham pick this site for burial? What were some of the other options that he must have rejected?
Abraham is at the mercy of the Hittites – he needs to bury Sarah so he needs a burial space, and quick.
Perhaps he had some pressure to take Sarah’s body back to Ur where he was originally from?
9. Who is buried in Grant’s tomb? Who else was eventually buried in the cave at Machpelah? Gen 25:8-9; 49: 29-32; 50:12-13
Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Rebecca...
Joseph's bones - final resting place
Another question: Where were Joseph’s bones laid to rest after they were brought back from Egypt? One answer is found in Joshua 24:32
32 And Joseph's bones, which the Israelites had brought up from Egypt, were buried at Shechem in the tract of land that Jacob bought for a hundred pieces of silver from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem. This became the inheritance of Joseph's descendants.
8. How would you eulogize Sarah? We leave this question hanging, for lack of enough time to discuss it...
Genesis 21: 22-34 and 23
Two business transactions
I neglected to take good notes, so this will be sketchy and inaccurate.
Genesis 21: 22-34
Abraham and Abimelech make a covenant about the well at Beersheba.
Abimelech recognized that God is with Abraham. Note that Abimelech and Phicol are not just random dudes but are powerful men with an army at their command. These powerful people find it to their advantage to make a treaty with Abraham.
Genesis 23
The Burial of Sarah
1. Who are the characters in this passage? Abraham, the Hittites, Ephron.
2. What major characters from recent chapters of Genesis are not mentioned in this passage? Isaac (we presume he did not return with Abraham, after the event on Mount Moriah). Hagar, Ishmael.
Abimelech.
God. Does the fact that God is not mentioned explicitly mean that God is not involved?
No- Abraham has been tight with God all along.
3, 4 & 6. The nature of the transaction
This is a classic case of Middle-Eastern bargaining. Each side must retain dignity throughout the transaction. The Hittites had to offer the best burial sites in order to not look bad. The mute understanding is that they really don’t mean it, and the other side is supposed to respond appropriately by refusing the “gift”. Abraham responds by asking for a different site.
American culture assumes that we will honestly state upfront what we expect from a transaction. Not so in the culture of Genesis 23.
5. Why did Abraham pick this site for burial? What were some of the other options that he must have rejected?
Abraham is at the mercy of the Hittites – he needs to bury Sarah so he needs a burial space, and quick.
Perhaps he had some pressure to take Sarah’s body back to Ur where he was originally from?
9. Who is buried in Grant’s tomb? Who else was eventually buried in the cave at Machpelah? Gen 25:8-9; 49: 29-32; 50:12-13
Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Rebecca...
Joseph's bones - final resting place
Another question: Where were Joseph’s bones laid to rest after they were brought back from Egypt? One answer is found in Joshua 24:32
32 And Joseph's bones, which the Israelites had brought up from Egypt, were buried at Shechem in the tract of land that Jacob bought for a hundred pieces of silver from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem. This became the inheritance of Joseph's descendants.
8. How would you eulogize Sarah? We leave this question hanging, for lack of enough time to discuss it...
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